Beyond the Spreadsheet: Humanizing Finance with Making Cents with Charlie Podcast

Charlie Liu (00:02)

Whether you're a CFO trying to balance the burn rate or leaders trying to escape a burnout, you're in the right place. We're here for the serious business, but I'm your not so serious host. My name is Charlie Liu and welcome to the MCC show, Making Sense with Charlie. We're diving deep into finance, leadership and happiness. Stick around because at the end of every episode, we'll be asking for that one piece of high value, low cost wisdom.

That two cent advice. Well, let's makes Cents. Well, family and friends, this is a special episode for us. This is our first ever episode. We're gonna have some hiccups. We're gonna have some issues, probably some IT bugs as well, but it's a learning opportunity for us. And I wanna share why we're doing this. It's something that we're, a new muscle we're building. And what I've learned over the last couple of years, it's fun being online.

It's fun giving back to community. It's fun learning from each other and sharing our learnings with everyone as well. And for us, This is Making Cents with Charlie podcast MCC. I'm sure everyone understand why it's MCC. ⁓ we're trying to build a finance podcast that's not just the lack of better words, the boring bits of day-to-day stuff. We'll be talking through that stuff as well.

They're all very serious. don't think they're boring necessarily, but I do want to bring out the un-serious side as well. Cause I think I'm a fun person and I think my team, everyone Eugene here with me, we're a fun group. So we want to make FP&A, we want to make corporate finance, strategic finance fun as well. But I think a big piece what made us successful, made me do better is also connecting with a personal side. I think there's too much in terms of

just a serious business site and a lot of us forget that we're people on the other side. CFOs, VPs, our clients, ourselves are people on the other side and there's a reason why we do what we do. I often tell my teammates so that the team on the other side

They don't have to work late nights. They don't have to work weekends now. They're getting a better automation with us. They're able to go home earlier. But to me, that aspect of tying that serious professional side, but also taking care of ourselves physically, mentally, spiritually, is a huge journey as well. And I really want to share in terms of my learnings through my career to also just the different guests I have on the show with me as well, so that we can give back to the community.

Um, started MCC. I wanted to scale this business. want to build an environment that takes care of ourselves or clients as well. And I wanted to make sure it's a, it's a fun and healthy environment as well. So we on the show, we'll be showing in terms of how you can be experts and still be people first. Well, now let's get started. Everyone. I'm super excited. Like I said, this is our first one, but I have my co-founder, Eugene Chang with me as well, but he's also more than just a co-founder.

He is a long-term, long-term friend, long-term friend of mine. I've known each other for what, 10 plus years. I still remember meeting him at the event office and taking the subway back home together and the laughs, the giggles, the conversations we had, carries us through today. Eugene, what did you remember from how we initially met?

Eugene Cheng (03:36)

Actually, Charlie, before we get started, we talk every day on business, everything that we do. It's actually only now that I noticed that Making Cents with Charlie actually stands for MCC.

We're doing this for so long

Charlie Liu (03:56)

Everyone out there, it's important to communicate. I thought it was obvious. Sometimes you get in trouble. Yes. Sometimes what you think is obvious is not so obvious and that applies in all aspects of life.

Eugene Cheng (04:01)

No, I only saw it now.

But no, thank you. Thank you for having me. wow. Yeah, we have, we've back for, we go back a long time. I remember I think the most favorite ones was, we taken the subway back, you you show your usual laughs and giggles, but then we also talked about some of the serious stuff and there were a couple of times where I say, you know what, I actually want to do a dropshipping business too. Yeah. I two options. was either going to drop ship furniture from Japan or stuff from Aliexpress and

You were telling me that the best way to start is create a website and just put your product up there. You may not know what you're selling. You may not even have that product in stock, but just put it up there. And if people ever want to click on it, just tell them you're out of stock and then you'll be restocking it soon. It's that fruit for that experience that you should learning that running a business, not about ⁓ having all the answers, having all the information. It's not about always being.

ready and going when you're 100%. It is also about testing. It's about iteration. It's about when you're going in with incomplete information. And then the key part of business is actually learning and what the environment is, what the market is. And that oftentimes just requires you going in without the full information. And we carry on this day to anything that we do.

Charlie Liu (05:37)

Yeah, I think it's for me building demand first and then figuring out afterwards. I mean, we saw our good friend, Mike Liu this weekend. told me what he's learning in life is sometimes when an opportunity comes and you're a little bit scared, you're not ready for it. Often that means it's a sign that you should take it. So to me, it's to get in, generate demand, make sure that

Eugene Cheng (05:42)

Yes.

Charlie Liu (06:06)

because ultimately business is basically joining supply demand, right? So figuring out demand, testing it if what you offer truly something people want and then you can figure out a supply set afterwards. Those were fun times. I remember testing drop shipping because that was the meta, that was the hype back then. And that led me to a different path for a couple of years as well, but it's good being back together with my old friend.

Eugene Cheng (06:09)

May.

I back then, yes.

Yes, yes. My first drop-in shopping product was a men's underwear with pockets. Because where else would you put your phone?

Charlie Liu (06:44)

Exactly, folks. I love that. That was a fun kind of side thing we were testing for a while. Speaking of that, I mean, we did that while we were at Vena. I know your career has been very interesting for a lot of folks. Actually, in the last month or two, reach out to me asking me how I got into space, if they should get into the space, how do they grow in their space as well.

Eugene Cheng (06:45)

you

Charlie Liu (07:12)

You did not, you came from a very different background. I'm sure the audience will appreciate kind of learning your career path and why you did or what the reasons were behind your changes and decisions.

Eugene Cheng (07:28)

Do you want the real reason or the reason that I tell people? Both?

Charlie Liu (07:31)

Why not both? Why not both?

So for all the audience, at least you have an answer for certain folks. then the genuine answer for the true, the real ones,

Eugene Cheng (07:44)

Well, let's start with the real one. ⁓ so my last, last job with prior joining Vena was, ⁓ RPC as a, so you can call it developer business specialist all kinds of stuff. So it was a lot, mainly dealing with capital markets, training systems, that kind of stuff from very technical stuff. It was good, but as you can imagine being in bank, you, it was a relatively cushy job. It was, you know, you your pension, you got your benefits, you got your holidays.

you've got your bank holidays, ⁓ and the pay was decent. Miracle of nine to five, no complaints, but I felt something was missing. ⁓ so I wanted a challenge. So I just started looking and then I started looking for consulting jobs and, here's where the real reason comes in. The first thing, the main thing that I was looking for is it was just a consulting job that required travel. Anything that had a travel. I said, I'll take it.

It was one of those days where you're still kind of young you still want to see you know, how what else you can get out of career and frankly I should did enjoy the travel being it's not so much about you know, perks of it is The being and the unknown you're in the unknown city in a foreign land in the city You've never been to client that you've been to they client they've never met That kept me on my toes So that's actually one of the things that I were truly truly enjoyed

So then, after that, was the rest of history, spending 11 years at Vena doing all types of different projects from really cool stuff such as SpaceX, Regal Cinemas, Morgan Stanley to some of the also exciting, but mid-size markets such as Taylor Swift's first record label and Big Machine Label Group.

Charlie Liu (09:31)

What was, ⁓ that's funny because I had a very similar start as well, but what was the worst? Not worst, every place is beautiful for everyone. Every place is a special stuff like, but what was your worst travel experience for work and what was your favorite one?

Eugene Cheng (09:48)

worst travel was in a place, not the shit of the place, but it is a place where even when I was at border security, they didn't know where it was. It was in a place called Coeur d'Alene It was in North Idaho and had to go in the middle of winter. So it was definitely not the most interesting place. And also it was basically one of the smallest place I've been to. It was also two, three hours drive from nearest airport. So that was...

Truly, one of the less than ideal place to go to. And my favorite, my best trip, and I tell this, my wife gets mad at me all the time. It was actually a trip to Hong Kong for one of projects was the Peninsula Hotel. I keep telling her my happiest moments in my entire 40-ish years of life. Number one was when my daughter was born. Second was my...

two weeks trip to Peninsula for work. Third was getting married to her.

Charlie Liu (10:52)

At least you're transparency is transparent. Transparency is important. I think one of my worst business travels was similar to yours as well. I remember failing my work, but it was about six hour drive. It was near Erie, Pennsylvania. And it was in middle of winter. It was a rental car without snow tires. And I got there. Surprised I got there, but...

Eugene Cheng (10:55)

That's why it seems important.

Charlie Liu (11:21)

right outside of the client office, I got trapped in the snow. I called the CFO, so the CFO, the VP, the controller and myself trying to get a car out of the snow. And that's how we met. That's how we started the consulting engagement. The project went really well afterwards. we started, we bonded, right? And yeah, those things makes it fun. I got into this space as well because... ⁓

Eugene Cheng (11:25)

⁓ no.

How you bond it. You bond it.

Charlie Liu (11:50)

I was this hippie backpacker and I learned that consultants get to travel and I was like, sign me up, whatever you need, I'll figure it out. If I get to see the world, sign me up. Now, so that's how you got started at Vena. ⁓ I know your career progressed significantly over there, but a lot of people I know asked as well, like, why did you kind of, you were at the peak of your game. You were...

Eugene Cheng (11:59)

Yes.

Charlie Liu (12:20)

the architect that managed all the architects, right? And then suddenly you decided to kind of join me at MCC and go from kind of having everything to almost nothing. And I know you and I love what we do. We work harder, make less than we've ever done. But yeah, what went through your mind? Cause like, ⁓ I was even skeptical. I remember saying, I don't know if you should do this with me. It's a...

Eugene Cheng (12:37)

You

Charlie Liu (12:47)

eating glass, looking into the biz, and not knowing if there's going to be a return.

Eugene Cheng (12:51)

Yes, distinctly remember the eating glass face very well. ⁓ So it's for two main reasons, right? ⁓ Number one is, ⁓ like I said, the reason I like the traveling part was always getting into the unknown. And while the van job was great, people were great. I find that it was, I was getting very, very comfortable. I knew everyone, I knew exactly what the odd processes are, who to contact for whatever the needs are.

It was getting way too comfortable. So that's when I know I needed a change. You know how every time you change a job, you go somewhere else, you do something new, you get the exponential rocket curve, learning curve. I was still learning Aventa, but it was at a much slower pace than I wanted to. So it was plateauing to be honest. ⁓ There's still stuff to be learned, it's not, it's not, it's the difference between steady growth versus rocket ship growth. And that's what I was great for. So that's number one.

And the second reason is a bit more of a personal reason, as you know, and some of the audience knows well too. I have a six, five year old daughter now. And part of it is, I believe this to set an example, to let her know the path of least resistance, the easiest path or most comfortable path. It's not always the best path. I want to encourage her to try things, go step in the known, to stare into the abyss and...

E-Class. So I want to let her know that doing stuff like that is worthwhile and there's no better way to teach that than doing it yourself. I came from a family of entrepreneurs, my dad had a great entrepreneur spirit, and also trying to follow in his footsteps as well too. So it's a bit of personal for my daughter and also for my parents that brought me here as well too.

Charlie Liu (14:46)

kids are smart, you gotta lead by example.

Eugene Cheng (14:47)

They know.

Exactly. They see. They see everything. They see more than we do.

Charlie Liu (14:52)

And

nothing speaks louder than action as well. ⁓ I know it's hard, because especially right now hard to balance the work-life balance, but ⁓ I'm sure having her seeing you kind of grow a business, leading it, is going to be inspiring. I mean, my dad was an entrepreneur as well, a bunch of them, and my family, my brother, my sister. ⁓

I think some people kind of have it in their blood. I'm not saying that you can't be an entrepreneur. It's more like I think there's an itch that some people might be born with it. I advise a lot of people if you have that itch, go scratch it. Even if you fail, you know you've tried and you decide afterwards if it was for you. ⁓ I think the...

heaviest things in life.

are those unmade decisions, those kind of what could have happened. ⁓ Even if you fail, you can sleep better at night.

Eugene Cheng (15:59)

Yep, agree.

Charlie Liu (16:02)

Now we, I mean, I this conversation kind of to help the audience kind of learn about how you got into it and how you got out of it in terms of Vena. And it's interesting. I spent a lot of time thinking about what consulting is, consulting in what we do, the CPM, EPM, FPNA system, data intelligence, strategic finance. What does it mean?

I have done multiple different things in this space from actual services to sales, to product, et cetera. I found that everything tied back together made me better as a consultant, which I started off and it's like a crazy journey, but I know you've also taken a very different path as well. ⁓ A question I often think it was like, what makes a good consultant? What?

When do you go from a consultant to architect? And I think this is a good question as well, because there's a ton of people in this space. And I think what's good with consulting these days, it's not tenure that moves you up. It definitely helps, but it's being effective. Especially with all the stuff happening in AI, things are moving faster than ever. In your perspective, what makes a good consultant? What makes a good architect? How do you grow into that?

Eugene Cheng (17:12)

helps.

Charlie Liu (17:25)

ideal consultant, ideal architect as well.

Eugene Cheng (17:29)

I think you nailed it on the spot when you said effective. ⁓ And I think it's actually beyond that as well, too, is how to be effective and also how do you ultimately add value for your customers beyond the simple stuff? ⁓ So let's say you have a deliverable, you need to do X, Z. You deliver it, project's done, great. Now, next is how do you work with the customers to go beyond? part of it,

that I used to do quite a bit is we know what the scope of the project is, we know what needs to be done, but then also talk with the customers, like, this process still makes Cents? We can design all these templates for you, ⁓ go through your users view, but then also ask, why are you doing this? Sure, it was in scope, you need these allocations, you need this type of workflow, you need this six-step approval process.

We can build it all for you, but... bye.

That's where you ask the customer to start thinking, oh yeah. So you bring in a third perspective to help the customer not only implement systems, but also take a second look at what their processes, what the business is. I think that's where you add the value beyond just software implementation, because anyone can build a template, anyone can load data. It is how you look at the customer, what kind of value did you bring?

that differentiate you from a regular customer to a consultant that a customer would love.

Charlie Liu (19:12)

And I love that because I think this I'll come back to this. I think it relates to that. Even the happiness thing I was talking about earlier. How do you get better at that muscle? Because most of us aren't born with, I know for a fact, I did not have that muscle at all when I started this. And I was so good at just taking requirements from the statement of work, what the client said and just did it. How do you build that muscle?

Eugene Cheng (19:42)

Ultimately, think it's, and I think you mentioned this as well, just treating them as people, not just customers. I remember very fiddly in one of my earlier engagements, let's see, I was talking to a CFO or a VP pretty high up there on the seniority level. He basically told me that his job hinges on this implementation going well. He was the one that suggested we need a tool.

The board approved it. Now we go ahead with implementation. If this implementation went well, will elevate his career. He'll be the one that I'm known as modernizing finance. But if it didn't go well, he would be known as the one that had a screwed up project and it'll care with him for the rest of his duration. So it's important to remember that you're dealing with people, the careers on the line. It's not just about you and finishing a project. It's about

them on their side as well too. Someone took a chance on you. So the least you should do is pay back in principle plus some interest.

Charlie Liu (20:52)

I love that and...

I've been thinking about like intention, being intentional and empathy for a long time. I think that was the pivotal driver to me just being a better person but also a better leader but also just more effective. ⁓ All things career. ⁓ And I think understanding someone, I don't think enough people think about someone bought his tool for a reason.

Eugene Cheng (21:23)

Yeah.

Charlie Liu (21:24)

It's

so obvious, but sometimes we're going to build the ETL, the transformations, figure out the allocation rules, the inter-company rules, the lease accounting rules. Someone bought this for a reason and you can often make or break their career. And I think that part of just putting yourself in their shoes and understanding them didn't buy a tool for it.

the sake of buying a tool, they bought it as an investment to improve something, to remove some sort of pain and asking the reasons behind the why makes it better. I Dan Martell is the one that always talks about like the bigger the why, the easier the how, right? I think that makes a big difference. No, I love that.

The other thing I wanted to ask about as well is I think for lot of consults, a lot of people in general,

There's a lot of people pleasers, I myself am one of them. And a lot of people that are not very good at confrontations, but I learned in my career, at least it's not really confrontation, but sounding boundaries and managing escalations takes a level of... Unseriousness, being able to smile and manage a relationship effectively.

Eugene Cheng (22:32)

Yeah.

Hehehehe

Charlie Liu (22:56)

You're one of the most positive, positive guys I know. Literally your energy gets us through the dark times MCC, but how do you stay fun during times like that?

Eugene Cheng (23:10)

⁓

think a lot of it is, like you said, taking life not super seriously, but also being conscious of people around you. I grew up in a, I grew up in a, in a, in a Catholic school, in a Catholic school system. And one of my favorite learnings, ⁓ was not exactly the Bible or the religious teaching, whatnot. Those are all great. But I think there was one religious class where there were two pictures.

One of them was a kid and the family, the kid came down, he was happy and the entire family is happy. But then it's the exact same picture, but on the other side is the kid came down in the morning, but he was grumpy and then immediately the entire family is grumpy. And that's what I learned very early on in my elementary school days that emotions are contagious. If you're happy, naturally you bring up everyone around you.

But if you're sad, pissed off, aggressive, you bring everyone down the line as well. We also learned in leadership that there's something called concept call above the line or below the line. So every day I ask myself, am I below the line or above the line today? And if I'm below the line, I ask myself why and what can I do to bring myself above the line? And keep it simple as thinking about your small wins. What are you looking forward to this weekend? What are you looking forward for lunch?

Staying positive is really the way to get out of dark times. There's no way. There's no, no, there's no other way. Otherwise everything is just It's just a negative spiral.

Charlie Liu (24:48)

Positivity.

Positive is really important. ⁓

I think it was Alex Hormozi, which is like the ability to be in a good mood. I'm probably butchering the line, but the ability to be in a good mood and the absence of reasons to be in good mood is the most powerful ability you can have. And it gets us out of some phenomenal situations. That story that triggered all this for you, it's fun.

The imagery around it is powerful. I can picture it. ⁓

Eugene Cheng (25:29)

And you see in real life too, like you've seen it where, well, yeah, a friend came by unfortunate news. And then the energy drops right away. Same as family.

Charlie Liu (25:43)

I think that makes a big piece. I also thought for a long time, I had RBF, resting bitch face. ⁓ Learn, figure out actually over the years, there's enough study that you can actually change this just by, it's a muscle, right? It's a muscle and just learning to make this like the resting state of what you look like can make a big difference. It takes time, right? But Eugene, we do.

Eugene Cheng (25:49)

This is important.

Yeah, it is, it is for myself.

Charlie Liu (26:11)

Have a few minutes left. I will love to have a longer session. I'm sure we'll have one very soon. Like I promised the audience, love to get that high value, low cost, two cent advice. What's your two cents for the audience?

Eugene Cheng (26:29)

If you unsure of what you have to say next, shut up and smile. Wait for what the, wait for what the other person has to say. This is true for negotiation, executive speak, executive talk. What I've learned over the years is the more you talk, the more you put yourself in trouble. The more you negotiate, the more you negotiate with yourself.

Charlie Liu (26:44)

Mmm.

Eugene Cheng (27:00)

Yeah, keep it short. If you notice that a lot of the executives talk like, know, yesterday's when yesterday when we met with some self-o'clock CEOs, what I've noticed that when they talk, it's in very short bursts. They don't go long when they don't need to talk about their points, explain their points, reiterate on the point, whatnot. They say what the point is and they just stop.

Charlie Liu (27:23)

I love it. There was a sales friend of who mentored me and he told me, don't over explain your point. It cheapens it, state it, have the reason behind it. Sometimes, sometimes you don't need to. And he told me to bite my tongue. There are conversations where I'm actually biting my tongue and just waiting for the response. That's a, that's a great one.

Eugene Cheng (27:44)

You

Charlie Liu (27:50)

Well Eugene, let's end this with just some rapid fire questions that I will be fun. So just give me the first idea or thought that comes to your head. Coffee or Red Bull?

Eugene Cheng (28:03)

Coffee.

Charlie Liu (28:05)

Dark mode or light mode?

Eugene Cheng (28:07)

Light mode.

Charlie Liu (28:09)

Oh God, you're disgusting. Um, how do you live with yourself? Um, V lookup or index match. I know there's better ones now. I know the audience, I know those ex lookup, but the Eugene and I came from a older time. Um, V lookup or index match.

Eugene Cheng (28:10)

I discussed it.

Neither, I use some Fs.

Charlie Liu (28:26)

Ooh, God, I can see that. ⁓ Biggest mistake, ⁓ a bad hire or a bad formula somewhere.

Eugene Cheng (28:36)

Bad high, bad high.

Charlie Liu (28:39)

I wanna say bad hire, but I've done some advisory work where I'm like, ooh, I messed up there. Thank God we caught it in time. Cringiest corporate jargon that you love to just get rid of this, get rid from the surface of this earth.

Eugene Cheng (28:57)

it would be contagious one and contentious one. mean, it would be enablement. It's so overly used and it's solution to everything. There's a lot more to enablement. ⁓ Processes, learnings, critical thinking. There's a lot more to cover and simple enablement. I would love to write that off to the face of the earth and toss it into the ocean.

Charlie Liu (29:22)

I love it.

I love it. Well, thank you so much, Eugene, for doing this with me. Thank you for being at MCC with me and also being at MCC, the podcast with me. This was a lot of fun.

Eugene Cheng (29:32)

Thank you for having me. ⁓ thank you for having me.

There's a lot of finance. Same here.

Charlie Liu (29:38)

Thank you so much.